What do you make of the Green Paper?

by Daniel on 23 Jul, 2008 in

Now it's out, does it match the hype? Will it be enough to stop the Conservatives from time-limiting benefits Wisconsin-style? Is it what you wanted it to be? Don't hold back now...

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by Jo on 23 Jul, 2008

I think it's worrying that everyone is behind it. How can you make life more difficult for people who might be able to work without making it more difficult for those who can't work?

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I think it's worrying that everyone is behind it. How can you make life more difficult for people who might be able to work without making it more difficult for those who can't work?


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by Holmwood on 23 Jul, 2008

I like most of it. Work for dole sounds dangerous if it's not done right, but it's better than time-limited benefits. Didn't your article a few weeks back cast doubt on the whole time-limited thing anyway?

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I like most of it. Work for dole sounds dangerous if it's not done right, but it's better than time-limited benefits. Didn't your article a few weeks back cast doubt on the whole time-limited thing anyway?


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by Patrice on 23 Jul, 2008

They're going to move across the DEAs?! Maybe I should start looking for a new job...

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They're going to move across the DEAs?! Maybe I should start looking for a new job...


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by esox on 24 Jul, 2008

The illict users section looks interesting. Most users are on incap for M/H reasons, D&A are usually secondary and not mentioned and JSA claimants are just going to say "me drugs Nah! and it all goes further under ground. Having said that benefit for treatment isn't a bad premis.

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The illict users section looks interesting. Most users are on incap for M/H reasons, D&A are usually secondary and not mentioned and JSA claimants are just going to say "me drugs Nah! and it all goes further under ground. Having said that benefit for treatment isn't a bad premis.


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by Daniel on 24 Jul, 2008

Good point esox. It could all get rather awkward as you'll have people turning up plainly unable to function due to drugs and alcohol, but denying they've taken anything so they don't get forced onto a treatment course. The obvious solution of making people take drug tests is possibly pushing the whole thing into police state territory though.

Also, a lot of work is being done on mental health support at the moment, but no conclusions have come out of any of it yet. How do you improve someone's mental health enough for them to take on work? Perhaps through gradually increasing voluntary work to resocialise them and get them into a routine?

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Good point esox. It could all get rather awkward as you'll have people turning up plainly unable to function due to drugs and alcohol, but denying they've taken anything so they don't get forced onto a treatment course. The obvious solution of making people take drug tests is possibly pushing the whole thing into police state territory though.


Also, a lot of work is being done on mental health support at the moment, but no conclusions have come out of any of it yet. How do you improve someone's mental health enough for them to take on work? Perhaps through gradually increasing voluntary work to resocialise them and get them into a routine?


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by noora on 24 Jul, 2008

Is this even going to be relevant to us in a year or so, with the consolidation and large contracts? We haven't had anyone getting in touch with us as a small local charity about FND.

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by WakingDragon on 25 Jul, 2008

noora - if you haven't been contacted by anyone regarding FND then I suggest you get in touch with them when the results are officially released. If you don't bother yourself then don't expect people to be beating a path to your door.

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noora - if you haven't been contacted by anyone regarding FND then I suggest you get in touch with them when the results are officially released. If you don't bother yourself then don't expect people to be beating a path to your door.


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by WakingDragon on 25 Jul, 2008

Likes:
1) Combining benefit limitations and access to support much more strongly (I know it's right wing but f*** it).
2) Anything that p1sses off the unions gets my support by default.
3) Removal of 16 hour rule and voluntary work limitations!

Dislike:
1) Lack of clear innovation measures. How will they ensure that provider services continue to get better and get more people into work? How will they build in systemic improvements in the service.
2) What happens when someone gets sanctioned? If you are going to remove someone from benefits then just stopping them will have nothing but a negative impact. Some kind of exit strategy for clients that uses that ultimate sanction to positively motivate change would have been better.

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Likes:

1) Combining benefit limitations and access to support much more strongly (I know it's right wing but f*** it).

2) Anything that p1sses off the unions gets my support by default.

3) Removal of 16 hour rule and voluntary work limitations!


Dislike:

1) Lack of clear innovation measures. How will they ensure that provider services continue to get better and get more people into work? How will they build in systemic improvements in the service.

2) What happens when someone gets sanctioned? If you are going to remove someone from benefits then just stopping them will have nothing but a negative impact. Some kind of exit strategy for clients that uses that ultimate sanction to positively motivate change would have been better.


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by Daniel on 25 Jul, 2008

Hi Wakingdragon & Noora,
I agree with your advice to Noora. However, there's a question as to who is really in play for FND. Alan Cave, one of the key DWP people responsible for the changes to procurement, has said that he expects 20 prime contractors and 80 subcontractors for DWP contracts once the various procurements are complete. Multi-tier subcontracting is not allowed - the prime contractor must directly manage all subcontractors. Given there are over 500 approved contractors currently, the field is shrinking massively rather than expanding.

At the w2w conference, he did say that experience in other countries had shown that the winners from this kind of change were often unexpected, so it's still worth going for. However, there will be a relatively small number of winners from FND. Hopefully benefit claimants will be among them.

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Hi Wakingdragon & Noora,

I agree with your advice to Noora. However, there's a question as to who is really in play for FND. Alan Cave, one of the key DWP people responsible for the changes to procurement, has said that he expects 20 prime contractors and 80 subcontractors for DWP contracts once the various procurements are complete. Multi-tier subcontracting is not allowed - the prime contractor must directly manage all subcontractors. Given there are over 500 approved contractors currently, the field is shrinking massively rather than expanding.


At the w2w conference, he did say that experience in other countries had shown that the winners from this kind of change were often unexpected, so it's still worth going for. However, there will be a relatively small number of winners from FND. Hopefully benefit claimants will be among them.


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by WakingDragon on 28 Jul, 2008

Agreed. The reality is that it costs a lot of dosh to manage 20 suppliers - even if they are all very good at what they do. But it is up to Noora and oganisations like her's to demonstrate that they are the best choice. If they can't put that case then a huge amount of resources would be wasted by prime contractors in trying to dig out the facts.

Whether or not your organisation is a business, if you are bidding for money then you are selling a service. How many successful sales people just sit in the office waiting for the phone to ring?

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Whether or not your organisation is a business, if you are bidding for money then you are selling a service. How many successful sales people just sit in the office waiting for the phone to ring?


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