Still at my wits end - advice needed
Hi all, I posted a few weeks ago after my JSA claim was ended due to me gaining a weeks temporary work. (That'll teach me)
I made a rapid reclaim (I have an astronomical phone bill as a result of being on hold in excess of 20 minutes, but hey).
I also requested a backdate for the period 24th December to 4th January. This claim has been disallowed (not received my letter yet) as "Labour market conditions have not been satisfied, and I do not show just cause". When I requested my backdate I advised that I claimed as soon as I was aware of the need to do so, and outlined what action I had taken to look for work - even providing details of an interview that it cost me £20 to get to!
I am advised that I can appeal against this decision using form GL24, but think I need some advice and guidance on how to do this. Our local cab is closed and I have no other ideas.
I have had one payment of £135 since December, I have not paid any of my priority bills and for the first time in my life will not be able to pay my mortgage this month. I am assuming that I will not be entitled to council tax benefit for this period either?
It is actually a full time job being unemployed! It looks as though we will be eating beans on toast without either the toast or the beans.
All sensible advice appreciated.
DM
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Council Tax benefit can be a separate assessment - you won't get it 'certificated' as a JSA income-based claimant, but worth applying to the council.
There is a time limit on appeal lodging, but the success of appeals does vary a lot depending on the advice or representation you get - so check online welfare rights advice first.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your...
I assume you weren't working 24 December to 4 January and also assume you were excused signing on over the Christmas period as is the want of JCP, so the first you knew of your claim having to be closed was when you attended your work focused interview at the start of January. You then immediately made a rapid reclaim.
Make sure you get a full and detailed statement from the decision making authority as to what labour market conditions have not been satisfied so that you know exactly what evidence you can provide on appeal. You have a month from receiving the decision to ask for it to be explained/reconsidered or to appeal.
It may be worth dashing off an email to your MP regarding a) the closure of your CAB and b) your situation to ask for support. A letter from an MP always carries weight and makes JCP look a bit closer at a case. JCP's view will be that ignorance is no defence, but ignorance backed up by an MP questioning the decision may offer a bit more defence.
Technically there was no reason for your adviser to close your claim. They could have just disallowed your JSA for the time you worked, but that would be too helpful. The irony is, had you not told your adviser about working over 16 hours they wouldn't know, so by being honest you are being penalised. And they wonder why people work cash in hand and don't declare it!
@darwins_mum
"It is actually a full time job being unemployed!"
I'm amazed at the effort some of our clients put in, and the expense they have burden.
Any client (past or present) of ours can use the facilities including the phones and PCs, and we encourage them to do so, as JSA is 'The minimum amount you need to live on', not the minimum amount of money you need to live on and carry out a full programme of job search activities.
Thank you all for your support. I rang our local tribunal service for assistance with submitting my request for the decision to be looked at again - unfortunately they have lost funding so not taking on new clients - groan. Waiting for a call back from CAB, I simply want someone to take me through the decision letter and cast their eye over my response. I suspect that there is a specific way to complete the response?
@ Lazarus, no I was not working between Dec 24th and January 4th. Your ascertions are correct, I made a rapid recalim as soon as I knew that the claim was closed. I can't see how I could have done it sooner? It all seems excessively punitive and downright nonsensical.
I now have my Mps email address and will be contacting him today.
With hindsight, I regret telling the truth about working over 16 hours, but have never been a benefit thief in my life, but by the same token, have never been on the verge of destitution before. Looking back through my bank statement, I have received 1 benefit payment in the last 28 days.
Now to ring my lender and utility suppliers to advise partial payment this month. oh joy.
Have a great day.
DM
I don't know where you're based Darwin's Mum but it may be worth asking about mentoring services in your area, either at the Jobcentre, where your local Next Step service is based, or even ring your local Work Programme provider to see if they'll be able to direct you to someone local that can help. You may have a local Work Club where you could get support as well, but you'd need to do a bit of digging to find out who is out there. There are lots of ex JCP staff and lots of people with experience of the benefit system who are working in the sector and who may be able to look over the decision letter and help you with your response.
It's so easy for us to sit here and give advice but you're having to live through this - I do feel for you. Good luck and I really do hope this works out for you.
Thank you for your advice Stephw2w, I had lunch with an ex colleague who suggested that I try at the local adult ed centre to access support. I am not sure whether I can access any of the w2w programmes as I have only been unemployed for 8 weeks. Are there certain stages where one can access their services?
I and many more like me are living through this, we almost operate within an information vacuum, never aware that we have done something "wrong" until we are financially penalised. I gently reminded the haughty JCP staff member that I was simply unemployed and not a lesser human being.
Does anyone know what timescale DWP have to issue a decision letter? I am assuming that I cant challenge the decision unless I have been notified in writing?
Have a great day
DM
Phoned local JCP who have no idea when I will be getting my decision letter, but advise that I am able to have an urgent appointment in the morning with one of their advisers who will take my appeal from me. (This was conveniently offered when I advised that I would be seeking the assistance of my mp) My intention is to ask exactly what "Labour market conditions not met" and "No just cause" actually means. I am not confident in submitting a successful appeal unless I know what arbitrary yardstick has been used to arrive at their conclusion.
Will keep you posted on the debacle.
DM
Bet your comment about being a human being went down well. It made me laugh anyway!!! Hope you got on okay today.
First the important stuff. BE WARY OF JCP - they may be trying to help but unless you have the written decision you won't know the reason for the disallowance, so you're spot on in your approach. When you get the decision it should have a clear statement as to why your claim has been disallowed, the law relating to it and how its been applied. You can ask for this statement verbally, but until you get it I'd be wary about submitting an appeal. Make sure anything that is said to you is also written down and signed by the Adviser. It sounds awful but you really shouldn't trust anyone! DWP don't have a timescale to tell you the decision .... you have a month to appeal once the decision is notified eg it is sent to you.
If you want to lose the will to live you can look at DWP's Decision Maker Guide: http://tiny.cc/DWPDMA It's an absolute minefield but there is a chapter on claims (Chapter 2) which may be worth ploughing through and it does cover good cause. As I said before, ignorance won't be a defence but it's worth reading up on it.
Re accessing provision: to access some things such as Next Step you just need to be unemployed. You can contact them via the Next Step website or give them a call.
Some training and some of the more local programmes funded by Skills Funding Agency, Local Authorities etc are also available if you're unemployed, irrespective of duration. Others, like the Work Programme, have more specific eligibility criteria.
However, many providers have lots of different pots of funding, so going to someone direct is often useful rather than being referred by JCP as providers relish the opportunity to work with a volunteer who really wants their help and will often go all out to find which funding stream they can fit you into just to work with you. Things like Work Club are run by volunteers, so again they would be very happy to work with you. Local voluntary sector organisations may also have a wide range of opportunities.
Next Step may be a really good starting point for you, particularly if you have a good provider in your area. Unfortunately not all of them are the same standard, but any help is sometimes better than nothing, and ALL of them should have ideas of where else you can go for help. Jobcentre Plus staff often don't know what is out there so doing your own leg work is often beneficial.
Hope this helps.
Give me strength! The woman that I saw at JCP was unable to shed any further light on the reason for my backdated claim request being disallowed, nor able to give a copy of my decision letter. so ultimately I have been sent away with a form to complete and submit once I receive my decision letter. A bit of a wasted journey, but as I am a dole bludger I obviously have nothing better to do with my time.
Have a great day
DM
Stephw2w, our posts must have crossed. Thanks for all of your help so far in navigating these shark infested waters.
I came home to find my decision letter, lo and behold it simply states "We have looked at your backdated claim and decided that you have not satisfied the labour market conditions for jobseekers allowance from 24th dec and 4th jan. We have also decided that you have not shown good cause for the delay in making your claim" There is no reference to any specific bit of legislation nor how it has been applied. I think the guidance notes to decision making will make interesting bedtime reading and hopefully will assist me with my appeal. Whilst I accept ignorance is no defence, I simply followed the verbal instruction of the numbnuts advisor in JCP. I had no reason to suspect that they were telling an untruth.(That'll learn me)
On a more positive note, I have spoken to one of the local w2w providers and have arranged voluntary attendance at sessions. I am sure my personal advisor at jcp will be thrilled. She wasnt too enamoured when my response to "what have you been doing to look for work" was: I have attended 3 business development courses, written a business plan, paid for and attended 2 professional development courses in an attempt to improve my chances of securing employment. I also attended 2 interviews over 35 miles away from my house. I think my response should have been "I have applied for every minimum wage job that I am physically able to do, oh and here are the rejection slips"
I better get with the programme.
Laugh? Pass me the Diazepam.
Have a great day
DM
Okay! Game on! Where a decision doesn't give the reason behind it you can ask for an explanation before you lodge a formal appeal. You have a month to ask for an explanation and then a month from receiving the explanation to lodge an appeal. That's probably why most appeals fail because people go straight to appeal without understanding the disallowance. Why DWP can't just give the explanation as a matter of course is beyond me. I suppose it saves them money in the long run through administration and people losing appeals.
So basically today or Monday give the Decision Makers Office a call (details should be on your decision) and tell them you want a full written explanation (officially it's a ‘written statement of reasons’). They have 14 days to give this to you. You can ask for a verbal explanation, but I have a fundamental lack of trust with anyone telling me something over the phone for something so important. At that point you should have all the background so will be able to put forward a better appeal. It will also give you time to read Chapter 2!!! :)
So lesson for today ... trust no one! Not even me as you don't know me from Adam. Although I do have 20 years experience in the industry and did work for JCP in a previous life so I know what buttons to push. :)
The JCP Adviser probably wasn't expecting you to offer any real explanation of what you've been doing to look for work. It's like when a waiter asks if you've enjoyed your meal and starts to walk away before you answer. It really rattles them if you do anything other than nod politely as that's what they've been conditioned to accept. She's probably still in a state of shock and confusion. And what they really don't like is people who know their job better than they do, so doing your homework always makes the game more fun as you could end up knowing more than they do. Keep them on their toes DM!!!
Stephw2w Thanks for your help so far. I switched off from it for a couple of days and tried to enjoy my weekend without this sh**e polluting my psyche. Monday will see me back with avengance.
Chapter 2 can best be described as a slow burner! The accronyms seem placed to deliberately confuse.
I fully intend to keep them on their toes, I may of course lose, but I cant bear feeling as though I have been cheated after simply following instruction.
Have a great day
DM
I was about to go to bed but I saw this thread and though i would chip in my 2-pence worth. As a former DWP stooge (FND Manager, Claims Assessor, Decision Maker), i'll lay out my credentials from the off.
I have seen hundreds (literally) of people in this situation. There is some good news and a lot of bad DM. Every fortnight when you sign on there is (or should be) a little spiel that the FND staff rattle of about "declaring work paid or unpaid, changes to circs etc" and if none of the above applies you sign the ES40 and your payment goes through. The conditions of your claim are also laid out on this document. I'm amazed that hardly anyone reads it, but it makes clear the responsibilities of the JCP and Job Seeker.
Unfortunately, if you work 16 hours or more in any given week you need to sign off (unless your advisor confirms otherwise) and make a Rapid Reclaim upon the termination of your employment. The signature that you provide each fortnight serves to confirm that you are fully aware of the conditions of receiving JSA. A RR is designed to streamline the claims process and is available to everyone (provided that you havent had a major change in circumstances, i.e moved to a joint claim, moved house, won the lottery etc). The big advantage is that you dont have to endure the 3 waiting days (i.e. 3 non paid days) at the start of the claim period.
The bad news is that if you dont ring the 0800 number to lodge the RR straight away you will most probably lose the your entitlement for the days between finishing work and calling JCP.
The good news: If you are made redundant / finish work late on the friday and try to call at say 9am Saturday and the office is closed, you can call back on Monday morning and explain that no one answered, then you can claim a backdated payment. This is never contested. If the Monday is a bank holiday then you can almost certainly do the same thing on the Tuesday and have the claim backdated.
Secondly, you could ask your claims assessor to look at an average of your working hours over a 13 week period. This is only likely to be considered if you have been working PT for some time and have provided payslips and fortnightly B16 forms. If you have simply done one FT weeks work in the middle of an extended claim then you are probably out of luck.
Finally, I second the above advice. Get everything in writing. It will take longer and depending on your circumstances you might well be screwed regardless, but cover yourself by ensuring that they are at least penalising you for the correct offence.
Those people who claim that their MP's have backed them to the hilt may be right, but I can assure you that they only do so where there has been a clear and flagrant breach of the regulation on the part of JCP. Sadly sometimes it happens, but more often than not (in this political climate at least) MP's are keen to be seen as tough on benefit claimants, so gone are the days that name dropping some lib dem back bencher will make the JCP manager poop themselves.
Good luck with the appeal and the job search.
Thank you for your input Squiggly Pig, late response has been due to arranging interviews and responding to a series of questions via telephone from someone from DWP regarding my efforts to find work. I was asked whether or not I had applied for jobs that I had been matched to at my work focused interviews - jobs such as working as a carer for physically disabled young people, working in a refuge for women fleeing domestic violence (urdu or Punjabi speaker required), working as a copy writer for a magazine....... need I go on? I have applied for none of these jobs, nor am I actually able to do any of them but I did investigate them, which is how I found the information out that was not apparent to the advisor. I feel a bloody sanction coming on, ho hum. My intention is not to appear blase, nor do I wish to sit on my erse while awaiting the job of my dreams. I am astute enough to realise that the area that I live in has been hit particularly hard during this recession and the reality is that I will have to travel further afield in order to secure employment however temporary. I did however point out, the independant actions that I have taken to secure interviews, 3 of which are in excess of 60 miles from my home (gis a travel warrant!), I also pointed out that I have submitted several applications (1 of which by hand due to technical difficulties and missing the post. What I couldnt answer honestly was why I didnt apply to work as an advisor for DWP! I would be sacked after a week for insubordination.
In response to your advice to get everything in writing, that is my motto from now on. When my initial nonsense started I had read the spiel on my signing on card, which was why I specifically asked what I needed to do. I regret not getting them to write the response down. I simply followed verbal instruction like the naive fool I was. Never again! My intention is not to get the JCP manager to poop themselves, but to simply advise me correctly. Needless to say I have yet to receive a response to my letter asking for clarification of my decision.
Back to the grindstone, 1 further application to complete. The process has been longer than writing a dissertaion, lots of responsibility. The salary is somewhere in the region of what I earned 14 years ago.
Stay well and prosper
Jobcentres have form on the DWP advisor issue.
More years ago that I care to remember (when students could claim in the holidays), it seemed to be fairly regular that students would be advised that the only way they would get any money was by working on the other side of the counter.
I certainly knew several people recruited that way, though they probably regretted those of Trotskyist persuasion who ended up as CPSA staff reps in their holiday jobs.
Paul, not sure what you mean by Jobcentres having form on DWP advisors?
DM
Hi darwins_mum
What I meant by 'form' is that for people they think might be capable of working for them, a requirement to apply to work in the Jobcentre either recruits people or persuades them off benefit.
Jobcentre staff might count either outcome as positive. As I said, I've known people who were press-ganged that way in the 1970s and 80s.
Capable of working for them would mean as a fortnightly review officer handling the signing, or adviser level up.
Refusing to apply counts as a sanctionable or disallowable action. So does applying in a way aimed to fail.
The comment was in relation to your point about possibly being sacked within a week for insubordination!
Thanks for the clarification Paul. awaiting my sanction any day now.
@Paul.Bivand
You are aware that the public sector (especially Jobcentre Plus) has a recruitment freeze at the moment?
@sabrina
Darwins_mum was asked why she hadn't applied to work as an adviser for DWP. My comment was to situate that in past practices where it was used to test people (as well as recruit).
I suspect that if she was sanctioned for refusing to apply for a Jobcentre Plus advisor role that was covered by recruitment freeze the Appeal Tribunal would laugh DWP out of court.
The madness continues, I have finally secured 4 whole weeks work - 45 miles from home after having an interview a week for the last month. My personal advisor states that I am ineligible for the discretionary assistance with travel as the job is temporary. Travel costs will be £100 a week. As this is the first sniff of work I have had all year, I am loath to turn it down (I am wary of a sanction if I do turn it down).
DM
Hi darwin, what type of employment are you looking for and in what area? What is the name of your w2w organisation?
George, I have a variety of skills in my portfolio. I live in the west midlands and have no w2w provider.
It is a good job I didnt end my claim for JSA today - my car did not want to do the 90 mile round trip, and is currently at the menders. 6 trains a day is unreasonable me thinks, so back to the drawing board. If I am questioned by JCP staff I may suggest that they pay for a replacement clutch for me. Ho hum
Hi Darwin
what type of employment are you looking for and the town or radii of it in which you are prepared to travel once you have the clutch sorted out?
George, I will consider most things above minimum wage within 30 miles of Spaghetti Junction.
Hi Darwins,
If you had the choice and in knowing the skills and experience that you have, what would give you most job satisfaction, career development and/or promotion?
You will have been asked this question many times by advisor's from JCP or W2W organisations, so you should give it some careful thought because it can put you back in control which can help you plan the career/job that suits your needs.
A slightly out of date comment, but the last I heard the DWP had a policy of not hiring from the unclean ranks of the unemployed.
And more on topic, what's the nonsense about job satisfaction? I can't honestly remember anyone giving a hoot about that during the years I have worked in the industry. It's what job can you get and how little can you afford to be paid.
Please explain Brennan.
If a person has the choice that suits their needs, skills, experience and gives job satisfaction then you have a person who will be committed to the company and will therefore be a worthwhile investment in future training and development, resulting in a win-win for all, JCP, W2W provider, Training provider, company but most importantly the job seeker.
@GeorgeL
I think you will find @Brennan's 'tongue' is well and truly ‘in cheek’!
Hi Tyn,
I hope so as Darwin is looking for some positive feedback and help from those who are working within the W2W program and if she can tell others what she wants then maybe this can be achieved.
George - just a minor thing. It's actually Darwin's Mum posting, not Darwin.
On a wider point, please don't get into this choice debate again, otherwise this discussion is just going to degenerate as it did before! Choice is thin on the ground in most places - the choice is between getting a job to pay the bills or eeking out an existence on benefits. Just being able to do anything until something better comes along is the reality for many people. I totally agree that having the choice of a job that fits like a glove with regard to skills, experience and job satisfaction would be utterly super duper and something we would all love. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but we don't live in an ideal world and that isn't the position most people are likely to be in.
It may be worth you reading Darwin's Mum's previous posts on another discussion to get a bit more insight into her position rather than regurgitate your historical postings, and you'll find that we have been quite helpful so far. Unfortunately I don't have a business in the SJ area - if you have any useful contacts there George please just share them with Darwin's Mum instead of getting all cryptic. If you don't have any real leads in that area please stop raising hopes that you can actually help.
I was asking that of her so that I could send her more info and contacts. But enough said.
My tongue is certainly not in my cheek. If Darwin's mum does not want to apply for minimum wage jobs several miles away then most of my colleagues would simply sanction her. What she wants to do would be considered completely irrelevant. She would of course be free to apply for jobs she wants to do as much as she likes, but if doing so fails to meet a certain level of activity then a sanction awaits.
I am not saying this is right, but it is the brutal fact of life under the new regime on Work Programme. Our bosses want us to bully everyone into stacking shelves and hang every other principle. Non-compliance with demands to apply for any and every entry level job available means sanctions.
I already handed my notice in in complete disgust at all this btw.
@darwins_mum
I'm currently working in the midlands on a W2W programme and would happily send you details of jobs, opportunities so i'll echo what GeorgeL said a few comments back and ask what kind of work are you after?
@darwins_mum
I would be happy to help too if we had some idea what type of work you are looking for (office work, Warehouse, Customer Service, Factory ect....)and if you could give us the post code of your nearest job centre this would help us target a location for you. I am not working in Welfare to work at present but I used too, but I would still love to help if I can.
I have gone through all your posts and know you said you would consider most things above minimum wage, but I have also picked up you do not want to work in a womens refuge, as a carer or a DWP adviser - don't blame you.
I can see that there are a lot of people on here who would love to help, but we need a little more information to make sure we can get the best results.
Hi Greyham and W2W,
Thank you and hopefully Lazarus can now understand why we need to know what darwins_mum would like to do so we can help identify the Choices that are there which suits her skills, experience and needs.
We have 2 eyes, 2 ears and 1 mouth and that is the ratio that we should use them, 4 to 1, listen to what she wants to do, look for the opportunities that are being created and then go talk to those who are looking for staff. If we can do that then we have a win-win for all but mostly for darwins_mum because she will have people giving her the backing she needs to get the job that suits her experience.
Afternoon all, I am currently working out of Birmingham - 12 hour days including a long commute, so please excuse my silence as this discussion has raged on without any input from me. Thank you all for your kind offers of assistance, I shall disregard the unhelpful comments.
Brennan - I received my sanction this morning (even though I ended my claim on Tuesday).
W2Whero - I appreciate your offer of help - is there a way for us to communicate outside of this open forum? I am not a fan of giving my personal details out.
DM
darwins_mum well done but remember there are still people here willing to help should you need them.
Hi,
Reading your comments I noted a remark by someone 'applying for entry level job' otherwise a sanction by work programme. I did just that and, I was bored stiff/rigid, plus they were using high level skills on the cheap.Something which has happened 3 times I am sick of it!! once but not 3 times.....
I was elated/cried with tears of joy to be on the work programme, I had a job lined up so was their for half an hour.
It seems the work programme guys and dolls have been looking for me, evident from the their many thank you letters' posted through my door and e-mails, god am I being stalked by the work programme lol lol. Easy money for them , i should be getting paid 3 grand for finding work not the other way around!
Today, they found where I am working sending a letter to my home asking me to sign a 'Consent to Share' form highlighted in very daring yellow wooow. They want to find out form my employer how much i am earning etc so that they can claim a job outcome. S'''t to that . Do they also want to know what size knickers I wear..... I know their are some of you who do a very good job, especially with people who are a lot less motivated than myself but, I am not keen on programmes such as these because they create a dependancy/washing machine culture
my question is:
I don't want anyone contacting my employers, for obvious reasons, so that they can claim a payment. The provider didn't do anything for it .Answers on a postcode lol lol thanks
Congrats Lottie. Well done for getting a job. Nice to hear some good news for a change. You don't need to sign the form and the provider doesn't need to contact your employer to get paid a job outcome fee. DWP do an off-benefit check - provider tells them you started work and if you're still not claiming benefits in 6 months time they'll get paid the first job outcome then sustainability payments every 4 weeks after that if you are still off benefits. But think of it this way. The money they get from your job will go to help someone who needs more support than you did! Also remember that if your job doesn't last for 18 months then you'll still be on the Work Programme so will be able to access immediate support from the provider to help you get straight back into work. Fingers crossed you won't need it. Good luck.
@lottie You are able to ask your x provider to stop contacting you or any employer.
"There is no specific legislative "enabler" which gives a provider the ability to gather or share customer's information with a third party, for example an employer or another training provider, for the purpose of placing the customer into training/work and obtaining outcome-related payments from DWP. The informed consent of the individual must be obtained beforehand, in line with the requirements of the Data Protection Act."
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services...
@PaulJJ - if Lottie doesn't sign the consent to share form the provider is not allowed to contact the employer, period. Mind you Lottie, it's worth telling them you aren't going to sign it just to stop them pestering you, but as I said, they don't need it to get paid the job outcome anyway.
As for not contacting a participant PaulJJ, you'd be hard pushed to stop them doing that. DWP have referred Lottie to the Work Programme, and like it or not she is now a member of the Work Programme club. The only way of getting out of the club is to sustain a job (usually for 18 months). Members of the club may want to influence how the provider keeps in touch but they pretty much have a contract with DWP that requires this in some form. And why on earth would someone NOT want them to keep in touch - if they run into any problems in the work place, if they want advice about work place training, if they're struggling with a problem affecting their work, the provider should be there to help make sure that the job lasts, doing whatever they need to do to support the individual. That's part of why they are paid on sustainability - it isn't a case of someone getting a job and that's it, they should be working for their money. So make them work for it!
@Lazarus Whilst being in the Club and not claiming JSA, Lottie can if she so chooses completely ignore the Work Programme, if that is what she wants and she can request them to cease all contact. Lottie can ask the DWP to arrange for the Provider to cease and desist all contact. If Lottie wants to keep in touch, they can do do when and by whatever means they want, as the Provider cannot refuse to provide in-work support, but Lottie is fully able to refuse any and all support, whilst not making any JSA claim. If the Provider does not hold full details of Lottie's employer(s) or hours worked then any claim they submit for an outcome payment will be difficult to submit.
Now when people like Lottie get a job they have no requirement to inform the Provider and DWP/Jobcentre of any new employer and they can write to the Provider and DWP/Jobcentre asking them to cease and desist all contact, as a way to revoke no choice membership of the failing Work Programme Club. It is not a question of what support they may need or want, just a question of whether they wish to exercise choice to have the Work Programme leave them alone.
You don't get the bit about not needing the employers details to claim the payment do you Paul. Providers don't need all the details to get paid the job outcome. DWP will do an off benefit check so it makes no difference. They won't find it difficult at all to get the outcome payment.
@PaulJJ, @Lazarus
As we all know, providers get paid absolutely nothing for someone starting a job. They do get paid if someone works for a total of 6 months (or 3 months for specific groups). The get further money if Lottie or whoever stays in work.
That sounds to me like the sort of incentive that leads to helping people get and keep work. My improvement would be to reward better jobs more (probably based on pay) and to reward career progression (aka increasing pay).
Some of these jobs (like Lottie's) will be gained by the provider doing absolutely nothing. That's what the Treasury calls Deadweight and is taken into account in the funding - providers have to get over 10% more job outcomes than people have got by themselves.
However, to make the system work so providers have the incentive to get people jobs that last, they have to be able to provide auditable evidence of the jobs. (see current media attention). It helps everybody if people co-operate, as long as that doesn't result in losing the job you have gained.
As Lazarus says, providers are supposed to work to keep you in a job. They are still learning how to do this - because previous programmes didn't require much more than 3 months job sustainment. There will need to be some culture change from the employer point of view - employers who got people in, sacked them rather than manage any issues, and got new people in next, should find providers being less ready to help.
@Paul.Bivand Lottie raised the issue of wanting no contact with a Provider, built upon the desire not to have to give up their Data Protection rights. They might want help, but why should cooperation and help, by implication, be defined as maintaining contact they do not want or giving up Data Protection Act rights?
Yes, but the provider won't be able to provide for others if they don't get paid for job outcomes that they haven't contributed to.
The understandable reluctance of people who've got jobs by their own effort to have contact with providers or to allow the provider to evidence the job results in some of the kerfuffle we are having now.
If a provider staffer has been told that Lottie has a job, but can't evidence it because she refuses, then it is tempting to ill in the forms themselves, in the belief that if Lottie is still in the job six months down the line, DWP will confirm she is off benefit.
That would be counted as fraud, but you can see why it might be a temptation - resulting solely from the refusal of the person concerned to allow the provider to verify the job.
To start another hare, providers could have an financial interest in encouraging people to get in-work support through union membership - assistance with training, issues with bosses etc. They have of course been criticised for getting free support off others....
@Paul.Bivand
"Yes, but the provider won't be able to provide for others if they don't get paid for job outcomes that they haven't contributed to"
Can you clarify this? As it looks like you are implying that the provider should get paid for outcomes they haven't contributed to, money for nothing?
Providers do get paid for outcomes they were not involved in, provided they can verify it and the claimant is off benefits for the appropriate sustainability period. However, what if an individual sources the job themelves and gets it using the cover letter and CV created with the assistance of the provider, using interview techniques gained from coaching given by the provider?
When WP started one of our offices got huge credit from the directors for getting x many people into work in the first month. Clearly, they'd done nothing of the sort; these people were already in possession of everything they needed to find work and just happened to get offers confirmed after signing their paperwork.
The provider did NOTHING at all to secure my job. They kept on harrassing to attended via my internet e-mail,letters etc.Thank god I didn't give out my phone number this has been going on for months.
One day I walked into the job centre for advice (silly me) the job centre person said that she did not have anything written down on her information system about my job. I told her where I am working so she quickly wrote it down , hit a target then passed it onto the W2W provider omg. I did not consent to her writing anything down at all - all shear flook
I don't even know who my W2W advisor is , like I said I was their for half an hour where I sat an assessment.
I told the provider that the whole process from job centre plus referral to W2W was a bit naughty... she laughed.
Job centre advisors are paving the way for W2W providers. The one who referred me knocked off a few of my qualification lining me up for admin work. I was even told that I should forget my career - to which I replied that I am still qualified mmm A friend has had the same experience
Bob that is what happened to me!
In my whole life I've never had anyone help me find a job so you can imagine being dependent upon an advisor is hard. I learn by asking questions and finding out for myself
I am sure that their are some good advisor...
@osdset. The way the finances work is that providers get paid for every job outcome, whether they did anything or not. If they were paid for every job outcome they had done anything to achieve they would have to be paid more per job outcome (but finding out which ones would need a lot of audit trails).
Beyond that, Treasury has an estimate of how many job outcomes would have been achieved without anybody doing anything, and an estimate of how many would have been achieved by previous programmes. All those job outcomes are charged to DWP's budget. Beyond that, extra benefit savings from jobs come off Treasury's budget.
The deal between contractors and DWP was (on the assumptions made at bid time - when the economy was doing better) that they should be able to break even over 5-7 years if they did as well as previous programmes. meanwhile they would have to put out cash to cover the first 2-3 years.
No provider should be breaking even at this stage - or indeed for at least another year.
So when I said that provider finances depend on being paid for jobs that people got for themselves, I meant it. Of course, skilled provider staff may convince participants that the job they have got has been got by their own efforts - as they may be more likely to stay if it's their own doing - even if there has been assistance along the way.