FND double funding or not?

Submitted by Bungle on Mon, 07/12/2009 - 11:30am

I'm hoping somebody with some in depth knowledge of Flexible New Deal can help me out with a few queries I have around FND and double funding.

We run a variety of government-funded training contracts in a couple of regions that improve the skills of Jobcentre Plus customers. The contracts we run include the LSC Employability Skills Programme (Basic Skills), ESOL, learndirect, etc.

We turned down the opportunity to deliver FND because the funding available was too low. However, a couple of FND providers have recently been in touch asking if their FND customers can access our other provision.

I'm aware that there is a fulltime 4 week work-related activity period in FND that is there for training/work experience. Does this mean that FND customers cannot access additional training/support on other contracts? Or are they fine to access other courses as this is the 'flexible' element of the contract?

Some contracts we are paid by DWP/LSC/ESF on job outcomes so I'm sure that FND customers shouldn't be accessing this provision. Or am I barking up the wrong tree in this age of 'partnership'?

I'm a bit confused because when provide training for the probation service or OLASS customers it's always at full cost and they pay for it ad hoc. I don't have access to the FND guidance around what FND customers can and can't do so I would really appreciate people's input.

Thanks.

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FND Section 07 – Accessing Other Programmes, Schemes, Grants and Incentives300.96 KB
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Submitted by Daniel on Tue, 08/12/2009 - 11:01am.

My (unevidenced) understanding is that it's ok to cross-refer between provisions from FND, presumably because price competition drives out any profit from double-funding. However, I'd recommend sending a question into the FND2 Q&A to make sure.

Submitted by Hippy Chick (not verified) on Tue, 08/12/2009 - 11:12am.

Hi Bungle. If you look at the DWP provider guidance for Flexible New Deal (on the DWP site) section 7 outlines Programmes/ schemes/ grants/ incentives that can be accessed whilst on FND.

Submitted by Daniel on Tue, 08/12/2009 - 11:30am.

Thanks Hippy Chick. That's a big and rather handy guide to what can be accessed, what the criteria are, and how to access it. It appears that most things are accessible, but you need to check individual restrictions. Of note is the final bit, detailing provisions which can't be accessed while on FND:

7.317. The following programmes, grants and incentives cannot be accessed by customers who are participating in FND:

  • Childcare Assist – This offers help with formal childcare costs for up to five days in the week before starting work. You are expected to cover these costs yourselves (Further details Childcare can be found in: Section 04 – Provision, Childcare and Additional Support).
  • In Work Advisory Support from JCP advisers – JCP offers support and guidance from a Personal Adviser to all lone parents who have moved into work to help resolve any difficulties and direct individuals towards other support.
  • New Deal for Lone Parents (NDLP) – NDLP offers advice and support for lone parents looking work. You are expected to offer equivalent support for lone parents on JSA.
  • New Deal for Partners (NDP) – NDP offers partners of benefit claimants the opportunity to join the (voluntary) New Deal for Partners programme to get a range of support to find work. As such, it is not appropriate for FND customers.
  • Programme Centres (future Support Contracts) - The support available from Programme Centres (which will become Support Contracts from December 09) is contracted for separately and is designed for customers before they begin FND (i.e. the supported jobsearch stage). FND customers will need more comprehensive support than Programme Centres (Support Contracts) can provide.

I've attached the guidance to the original question for reference, but it can also be accessed here, and will presumably be updated there over time.

Submitted by bigbaldbloke on Tue, 08/12/2009 - 1:36pm.

The other part worth adding in there is the Young Persons' Guarantee. Some people assumed at the start of the FJF roll-out that young people on fND could progress into a Future Job, but accessing the YPG after starting on fND is akin to accessing GtW after starting FTET.

God I love acronyms........

Submitted by Bungle on Thu, 10/12/2009 - 12:11pm.

Many thanks for this everybody. I really appreciate your prompt help.

Bigbaldbloke (or BBB given your love of acronyms), further to your point; I'm fairly sure that 18-24s on JSA will be mandated onto YPG before they are allowed to progress on to FND from April 2010.

Submitted by davemassey_99 on Thu, 10/12/2009 - 12:44pm.

This is fascinating and not what I expected to see in the DWP guidance as it sounds exactly like double funding to me! Am I missing something here? Daniel, is there anything that explains how this works? What's to stop providers meeting their targets based on entirely on the work of other providers and both getting paid for the same thing?

Submitted by Daniel on Thu, 10/12/2009 - 1:11pm.

@Dave: Making it possible for FND to pull in other types of support from all over the place was part of the FND design, I believe. The idea is to avoid duplication and tap into specialist delivery rather than enable double funding. There's an interesting issue around more than one funding stream claiming for a job outcome, but unless it says otherwise in the guidance, this isn't seen as a problem anymore.

My guess on the justification for this is that in a price competitive marketplace, the invisible hand drives the cost of delivery down to an appropriate level, taking account of externally available support along with any other cost savings.

Incidentally, the discussion section of the Wikipedia article linked to above contains the following:

Q: How many free market economists does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Free market economists don't change lightbulbs, they prefer to write their papers in the darkness while waiting for Adam Smith's invisible hand to do it for them.

Submitted by davemassey_99 on Thu, 10/12/2009 - 1:20pm.

So the idea is that if there is a lot of provision around in an area then the FND bidder will take this into account when bidding for the FND contract and therefore offer a lower price knowing they can take advantage of this other provision? This still seems very haphazard to me.

Incidentally when I was studying Economics the joke was:

Q: How many free market economists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, they just assume it has been changed.

Submitted by bigbaldbloke on Thu, 10/12/2009 - 1:31pm.

@Bungle - you're quite right sir (madam?). Legislation is currently going through parliament that means that, as of April 2010, CTF will become mandatory in the same way that GtW is/was.

bbb (lower case if you don't mind!)

Submitted by stephw2w on Mon, 14/12/2009 - 11:36am.

I think the double funding issues that we used to have are no longer an issue because:

a) providers are technically not being paid to deliver training - there is no specific requirement for this so the client is able to access funded training elsewhere.

b) Under New Deal clients were on a training allowance. Under FND they're only on training allowance when they're doing full time provision. The provider is playing the part of JCP until they arrange full time provision.

Does this make any sense?! I don't suppose it has to really ... it's welfare to work!

Submitted by Huan on Sun, 21/11/2010 - 5:53pm.

Nice job! alot of usefull information, thank a lot!

Submitted by bigbaldbloke on Mon, 22/11/2010 - 10:34am.

I've started hearing that the SFA now don't want fND customers accessing ESP, claiming that it's double funding. Anybody else hear the same?

Submitted by Tacitus on Sun, 27/03/2011 - 7:58am.

I think we just got spammed